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%	Committee Meeting Minutes
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%	Mark Dennehy
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\begin{Minutes}{Minutes of the 13th Committee Meeting of the Dublin University Rifle Club}
\participant{
Steven Watterson \textit{(Captain)},\\
Benjamin Jones \textit{(Treasurer)},\\
Mark Dennehy \textit{(Secretary/Match Secretary)},\\
John Keeney \textit{(Ammo\&Equipment Officer)},\\
Alan Smyth \textit{(Chief Range Officer)},\\
Conor McDermottroe \textit{(Public Relations Officer)},\\
Deirdre Ninaber \textit{(Ladies' Coordinator)},\\
Peter Byrne\\
}
\minutetaker{Mark Dennehy}
\moderation{Steven Watterson}
\missingExcused{
}
\missingNoExcuse{
Jason Sibley\\
}
\minutesdate{6 Nov 2001}
\starttime{1850}
\endtime{2210}
\location{Ben Jones' Lab, IAMS building
}

\cc{
DURC Committee\\
}

\maketitle

%-----------------------------------------------------------------------

\topic{Peter Byrne}
It was decided by the entire committee (except for Jason who
was absent) to co-opt Peter Byrne onto the committee due to
his continuing committment to the club and his presence at
previous informal committee meetings. Peter accepted as
graciously as was possible while kicking and screaming.

\topic{Petrol}
Ben wanted people to turn in receipts for petrol from the UCD
and RRPC weekends.

\topic{Formality}
Steven pointed out that the last week's formality had gotten
a lot done in a shorter space of time and proposed we
continue to use it. Noone objected.

\topic{Targets}
Steven pointed out that the current NSRA targets the club has
have a problem in that they tear badly due to their thinness.
Mark happily said ``I told you so''. Buying Edelmann targets
was accepted as the course of action. John reported not
having prices yet and that he would get some the following
day. Single-bull targets were mentioned and Mark was adamant
that we could not buy them from Dave Cooney as the ones used
in the Nationals had come from his storage area and were so
damp that the Nationals' Finals had been a shambles with many
challanges. It was agreed by all that it was a priority
to get targets soon.

\topic{Secretary's Report}
Mark reported that AHG and FWB had replied to him regarding
purchasing capital gear and that AHG had sent catalogs and
were offering a 10\% discount on AHG items and 7.5\% on JHG
items. FWB, however, were asking that we talk to Dave Cooney
as the Irish distributor. It was not felt that this would
give a good discount.

\topic{CRO Report}
Alan reported having talked to Liam about his missing RO duty
slots. Liam apologised but said he thought Steven had him
covered for those nights. Steven said he should have arranged
something on those nights.

\topic{A\&E Report}
John gave his impressions of the new DUCAC treasurer
which were not favorable. She did not, in his opinion, seem
to understand that our jackets were not personal gear and she
had expressed her policy of not paying for personal gear.
John was adamant that we must stress that jackets, etc, are
not personal gear for this reason. 

Mark at this point mentioned that Eric had suggested that ESB
would be willing to sponsor us to buy some jackets, but that
nothing had gone past the possible stage yet.

\topic{Capital Grant}

John and Ben were asked for their impressions of the DUCAC
grant decision-making process from past experience as
treasurers. John replied that with a new Treasurer in DUCAC,
past experience was not terribly informative. Ben reported
that last years grant came to \pounds1300, approximately
\euro{1650}. He expected us to receive a similar amount this
year. Ben also pointed out that we fufilled most if not all
of DUCAC's criteria for getting large grants.

A list of options was taken by Steven:\\
\begin{tabular}{ll}
Aluminium stocks for old .22 rifles&Shooting Trousers\\
Electric target changers&Shooting Boots\\
Air Rifles (PCP?)&Gun Safe\\
Junior Air Rifles&Jackets\\
Hook/Buttplate assemblys for old .22 rifles&\\
\end{tabular}

Discussion then followed on each item.

\subtopic{Aluminium stocks for old .22 rifles}

Mark proposed this option because:\\
\begin{enumerate}
\item The aluminium stocks were aestheticly pleasing and that
the look of them alone raised interest in shooting to a
higher level if that would allow people to use them
\item It would allow us to reuse old target rifles with
perfectly acceptable actions/barrels but which were not used
today due to old stocks, e.g. \#3
\item It would allow us to field more 3P shooters for
competition
\end{enumerate}

Discussion was then opened to the floor.\\

Alan pointed out that we had two 3P rifles allready and they
weren't used for 3P. He also felt that \#3, being a standard
rifle, was past it's point of usefulness anyway. Conor
wondered about the cost of this option. Steven suggested
about \pounds800-900 from the NSRA. Alan had a problem with
the elitism that the stocks would promote. Mark reported that
AHG's price was \euro{989} for a 2213 stock, and the NSRA
price was \pounds754. Alan commented that he felt the level
of adjustment on the stocks was a good idea, especially as he
had recently been told to cut a few inches off his own
stock. John pointed out that the stocks were good for prone
shooting as well as 3P. Steven felt that the cost was quite
high and that setting an alu stock up was quite tricky and
involved. Alan suggested waiting for the new range as the
equipment reuse argument would be far more weighty then.
Peter suggested that alternatives would be a better use of
money. 

Steven called for a vote to keep alu stocks on the shortlist.
\Onevote{}{2}{3}{3}{Motion rejected}

\subtopic{Shooting Trousers}

Steven proposed this option because:\\
\begin{enumerate}
\item They would add to all the Air Rifle scores by up to 40
or 50 points.
\item He felt they contributed more to good shooting in Air
than the jackets did.
\item The sharing trousers problem would be negated by
wearing jeans underneath them.
\end{enumerate}

Discussion was then opened to the floor.\\

John wondered if we could wear jeans under the trousers.
Steven said that this was not a problem - Mark said that
leggings were normally worn and that jeans wouldn't be a
problem. John's comments on lycra shorts were not recorded
for posterity. John wondered if we could get enough sizes to
adaquately cover the range of people in the club. This
worried Conor also. Alan wondered about the administration of
selecting trousers for people, preventing gear conflicts and
so forth. Mark found a price in the AHG catalog of
\euro{121}. Ben wondered if the length of the trousers
mattered. Steven responded with a quick explaination of how
the trousers operated, mainly pointing out that a variation
in waist size up to 1 or 2 inches was fine and that the only
part of the leg that counted was from thigh to waist. Deirdre
wondered if adjustable waists were available, Steven replied
that Marks were an example of this. Peter thought they were a
good idea to get air scores up. Mark reminded everyone to
budget for suspenders to prevent serious levels of wear and
tear on the cuffs and zips of the trousers. Ben wondered if
there was time in our half-hour details to get into and out
of the trousers. Ben also thought that their price was low
enough that they might be purchasable on the Non-Capital
grant. John pointed out a rumour from the UIT email list that
the ISSF was planning on changing regulations for the
thickness of jackets and trousers and that this might result
in them being worthless in a few years. Steven gave a brief
account of the ISSF rulechange being discussed in an ISSF
technical committee and it was pointed out that such rules
would take time to reach Irish national competition levels.
Mark also pointed out the many unconfirmed rumours in this
area to show we shouldn't take them seriously until they are
actually written down. 

Steven called for a vote to keep trousers on the shortlist.
\Onevote{}{8}{0}{0}{Motion passed}

\subtopic{Electric target changers}

Steven wanted to know how broken our current electric
changers were, but noone knew for certain, though all felt
that repair should be within our capabilities. Prices were
unknown but were thought to be relatively cheap. John agreed
to check our current changers. 

Steven called for a vote to keep target changers on the shortlist.
\Onevote{}{0}{8}{0}{Motion rejected}

\subtopic{Shooting Boots}

Mark proposed this option because:\\
\begin{enumerate}
\item Shooting in bare feet was the best option for scores
but put enormous stress on the achilles' tendon, causing pain
and possible chronic damage. 
\item Shooting in boots gave a better score.
\end{enumerate}


Discussion was then opened to the floor.\\

Alan said he'd never noticed boots adding to his scores
before, but he did feel more comfortable in boots. John
thought people should be expected to have a pair of normal
shoes with low heels and flattish soles as part of their
personal air rifle kit, and that we shouldn't be buying them
for our shooters. Peter said he'd never noticed any
improvement in his scores from using boots. Mark said that it
didn't help achieve a score so much as allow you to achieve
it for longer by increasing your comfort level. Ben wondered
how many pairs we would need. Peter felt we'd need one of
every size from 12 to 3. Alan felt it was too personal a
piece of gear to share with 400 other people. Mark found a
price of \euro{99} from AHG for basic boots. John felt that
this would make the problem of access to a specific set of
club gear worse. Summary points were called for by Steven. 
Mark felt they had medical and score benefits. Alan felt they
were too expensive. Peter felt trousers gave more points for
roughly the same amount of money. John felt they were
personal kit. Steven and Mark both felt this was not true. 

Steven called for a vote to keep boots on the shortlist.
\Onevote{}{2}{3}{3}{Motion rejected}

Steven was asked for his personal opinion - he reported he
had never shot without boots.

\subtopic{Air Rifles}

Ben proposed this option because:\\
\begin{enumerate}
\item We don't have enough air rifles. We had to borrow two
at the UCD open. We have many .22 rifles but only 6 air
rifles, of which one is being repaired in germany.
\end{enumerate}

Discussion was then opened to the floor.\\

Alan felt our current 601s had seen too much wear and tear
and new rifles were needed to step in. John said we needed
more variety in our rifles to be able to match our air
shooters to rifles better. Deirdre thought we should get a
junior rifle for girls because the balance was too akward for
many on the full-size rifles. Ben wondered if DUCAC would pay
for Junior's equipment. Conor pointed out that it was a size,
not an age related distinction, and that up to an eighth of
our people in Freshers' week had had problems due to the size
of the rifles, or difficulty in cocking them. Steven pointed
out that girls should be shooting with a chair to rest their
rifles on for leverage. Mark suggested left-handed rifles
would be a good investment. Ben replied that only 10\% of the
population was left-handed (Mark countered that 40\% was a
more likely figure). John pointed out that the .22
left-handed rifle was so delapidated that if we were to buy a
left-handed rifle, we should start with a .22. Alan pointed
out that right-handed shooters still had gear conflicts and
they had to cope with it. It was wondered how serious a
problem it was. 

John proposed that we get a PCP air rifle. He noted that when
he used Ray's P70 his score went up by 30 points because the
muzzle velocity was higher, thus reducing the importance of
the follow-through. Alan pointed out that PCP rifles would
eliminate the aerobics workout that charging was during
shooting. Mark gave testimonial on his new PCP rifle and
fully backed the idea as it raised scores, allowed easier
loading for less muscular shooters and allowed easier 3P
shooting. Steven wondered where we'd get the air compressed.
Mark replied that he had talked to the scuba club about his
own rifle and they were amenable to letting us fill up there,
but it was pointed out by Ben and John that getting our own cylinder was a
better idea. Safety was discussed - a five-year hydrotesting
would be required. Steven remained unconvinced the extra
hassle was worth the effort, and didn't think that extra
points would show up in competition due to other factors
causing stress. Peter pointed out that his last string in the
UCD open had been poor as he was exhausted from charging the
rifle. John pointed out Ray's back problems caused by not
breaking position during a match. Mark replied that Ray's age
was a factor in those problems. Conor wondered about if we
had enough safe space. 


Steven called for a vote to keep air rifles on the shortlist.
\Onevote{}{8}{0}{0}{Motion passed}

\subtopic{Gun Safe}
Steven pointed out that the safe was currently over-full and
we had rifles in Front Arch. Conor pointed out that we had
rifles in the club safe held by individuals - Mark, Steven,
Ray and Keith. Conor also felt having any rifles in front
arch with bolts and ammo was a serious problem, especially
with security moving out of there soon. Ben wondered where
we'd put the safe. Steven said we would find the space, that
there was plenty on the range. John said we had to have it in
a lockable area. John also said not to bring it up with
security as a security problem. Mark suggested that people
with personal rifles chip together to buy a safe for those
rifles on the range. John suggested we just buy a big safe
and those with personal rifles chip in. Peter wondered if we
should trade our current safe in - this was felt to be a bad
idea as ours is a high-quality safe. John and Mark discussed
the possibility of second-hand safes which wandered to a
discussion on the outcome of the NARGC gun safes case. A
discussion on prices took place and it was felt that
\pounds150 upwards from Geoff Cooney was about the best that
could be done. 

Steven called for a vote to keep a gun safe on the shortlist.
\Onevote{}{4}{1}{3}{Motion passed}

\subtopic{Scopes}
John and Alan commented on the current scopes. They
were in pretty poor condition, with only 4-6 being
usable, none of which were usable at 100 yards. A better
breakdown was listed as:\\
\begin{tabular}{ll}
25yards&7/8 servicable scopes\\
50m&4/5 servicable scopes\\
100yards&0 servicable scopes\\
\end{tabular}

Though these figures were contested by Mark, who said that
the current scopes caused eyestrain and only one or two were
adaquate. Steven wondered if they could be repaired and if
not, what would the replacement cost be. Alan said that
repairs had proved temporary in the past. John felt they
couldn't be repaired but should be cleaned professionally.
Mark felt that they couldn't be repaired as the optics were
simply not up to the task. John pointed out that we couldn't
afford a decent scope. Mark found prices - \euro{250} and
\euro{350}. Steven wondered if the stands were damaged -
Mark and Alan agreed that they were repairable. John pointed
out that he had examined the \euro{250} model scope and not
found it to be any better than our current ones in practise. 
Alan pointed out that the scope John was comparing it to was
one of our better scopes. Mark pointed out that the
\euro{350} model was the same as Rhona Barrys, and that that
scope was excellent. John pointed out that that model did not
fit our stands, and neither did the other model. Ben felt we
had enough scopes allready. Mark felt the eyestrain problem
was being understated. Steven felt it was not the biggest
problem. John said he'd never had eyestrain problems before.
Alan felt that overall our scopes were of poor quality. Conor
said that they gave a poor sight picture. Mark suggested
replacement eyepieces might by a useful idea. Ben wondered if
they would help. Mark found a price of \euro{60} for them.
John and Mark commented on their differing opinions on JK
Walsh's scope. Steven called for pros and cons. Peter felt
that we needed a scope but not for 100yards which we only
shot once or thrice a year. Mark felt we needed one due to
the eyestrain and sight pictures from our current fleet.
However he wondered if eyepieces were an acceptable
comprimise. Alan pointed out that the sighting-in phase is
highly important and a good scope a necessity. Deirdre had
nothing to add. Conor agreed with Mark. Ben felt strongly
that we allready had enough scopes and more would be a waste,
especially as we only shot 100yds three times a year. John
said it was a lot of money for little return and maintainance
was a better solution. Peter pointed out that even though we
don't shoot 100yds often, we still had to be able to shoot
it.
Mark asked Ben if eyepieces could go on the NonCap grant, Ben
replied yes.

Steven called for a vote to keep scopes on the shortlist.
\Onevote{}{4}{2}{2}{Motion passed}

\subtopic{Jackets}
Mark pointed out that there had been a few people that didn't
easily fit any jacket this year, however this topic 
was dismissed without much discussion as it was felt not to
be needed at present.

\subtopic{Aluminium Buttplate/Hook assemblies}

John advocated this choice. Mark found a price of \euro{200}
for the AHG and MEC buttplates, but reminded everyone that
this was not including a buttplate carrier. Steven wondered if they were
useful, Mark, John, Peter and Alan said it was. Mark wondered
if Air Rifle buttplates could be ordered. This was dismissed. 
Steven wondered if we would upgrade all our rifles - John
replied that no, only one or two would be done. John pointed
out though, that retrofitting was not easy or cheap, or even
necessarily possible.

Steven called for a vote to keep buttplates on the shortlist.
\Onevote{}{8}{0}{0}{Motion passed}

\subtopic{Shortlist}
Steven then listed the shortlist:
\begin{itemize}
\item Shooting Trousers (\euro{150})
\item Air Rifle (\euro{1200-1300})
\item Gun Safe (\euro{300})
\item Scope (\euro{300})
\item Buttplates (\euro{300})
\end{itemize}

Ben noted that we could apply for all and fall within a
reasonable budget. A discussion on numbers of items ensued. 
Peter noted that he had intended to train that night and the
committee's response was ``welcome to the committee,
peter!''.

Alan wondered if we could allocate priorities in the grant
application. A discussion on how many trousers were needed
cropped up, with both ben's estimate of 2 and steven's of 5
being seen as unrealistic. Money-back guarantees were
discussed, and if the gear is not custom-made, it should be
possible to return it. On the question of who should be using
the trousers (and how many were therefore needed), Steven
remarked that ``it doesn't take skill to use trousers
properly''. He offered to demonstrate by using either his
trousers or marks, but the offer was declined as soon as the
committee stopped laughing. After some negotiation, the
following was settled on for the application:

\begin{tabular}{rl}
3&Shooting Trousers\\
1&Air Rifle\\
1&Gun Safe\\
1&Scope\\
1&Buttplate assembly\\
Total Cost&\euro{2550}
\end{tabular}

This was accepted by all, but Alan registered his unhappiness
at the amount of money being spent on the Air Rifle. 

\topic{DURC 10m Air Rifle Open}

Mark gave a list of sponsors asked to help and reported that
Meteor had turned us down. Alan asked not to be sent the
emails regarding the sponsorship and people in general said
they'd prefer if they only got the emails from sponsors
agreeing to help.

\subtopic{Format}
2 hours per detail, beginning Saturday at 1100, Sunday at
1000, with a 10-shot final at 1630 on Sunday. 

\subtopic{A\&E}
Graduated guages and targets are needed. John will acquire
these as soon as possible. 

\subtopic{IT}
Mark reviewed last year's setup. Steven was worried it would
be a lot of work, but most people involved last year
disagreed. John suggested that we take a modular approach
instead of an all-or-nothing one. 

\subtopic{Rotas}
Ben wondered if a shooter could score his own cards. Steven
offered to disregard his own scores, but was overruled by
Mark and John as he was likely to put in the best score from
DURC. Mark said a pool of scorers was allowed in ISSF rules.
John said Keith shouldn't do it all this year again. Steven
and John pointed out that we should be expecting no time off
that weekend (with the exception of Conor and Peter who
worked weekends. Mark however, promised Conor cake and song
if he came down on the 24th which was Conors birthday). Mark,
John and Steven indicated they were happy to do RO duty
and stats duty on the weekend. Alan said he'd draw up the
rotas. It was agreed to have 2 ROs, 1 scorer and 1 data entry
operator at all times.

\subtopic{Costs}
The event, it was agreed, must break even or make a profit.
Steven wondered about UCD range hire - Alan felt \pounds30
would be a likely maximum, and free might be possible.
Targets were estimated at \pounds200 to \pounds300 by John.
Ben did some estimates and came up with us raising
\pounds300 in fees. A debate on the fees level arose and went
on for a while - it was felt that UCD and WTSC having charged
\pounds9 we couldn't charge \pounds10 without having good
prizes. Alan felt DUCAC shouldn't pay for targets, Mark
strongly disagreed. Ben reminded people of the \pounds1 NTSA
levy. After some discussion with Ben using his little
whiteboard to full effect and Steven at one point suggesting
an orgy in the UCD range to increase attendance, it was
agreed to charge \pounds9 for adults, \pounds6 for
students/DURC members/Juniors. This left a budget of
\pounds150 for prizes. 

\subtopic{Advertising}

Mark said he was going to take two days to contact potential
sponsors directly and then he would print the flyers for the
open and post them to all concerned. More would be printed
and handed out at the WAIDAM open that weekend. 

\topic{AOB}

Peter wanted shorter meetings. Everyone agreed, but noone had
a viable solution.

Mark pointed out that many people had asked about getting
their own gear and that we should invite them to order their
items when we made our order to avail of our discount. This
was agreed to be a good idea and that we would do so.

%-----------------------------------------------------------------------
\begin{center}
\fbox{ \large \sf \bf T.B.N.O.B.T.M.W.D.C.}
\end{center}

\vspace{4ex}
\begin{raggedleft}
\rule{4in}{0.01in}\\
Steven Watterson, Club Captain\\
\vspace{4ex}
\rule{4in}{0.01in}\\
Mark Dennehy, Club Secretary\\
\end{raggedleft}

\newpage
\begin{center}
\fbox{ \large \sf \bf Tasks agreed on at meeting}
\end{center}
\vspace{4ex}
\listoftasks

\end{Minutes}
\end{document}
